12 week INR interval vs. 4 weeks in patients who are "stable" for at least 6 months.

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Stupid, and irresponsible. The admitted limitation of the study suggests that the conclusion itself is invalid. If your INR is tested only once in 12 weeks, you could be significantly out of range for 2 months longer than usual patients (3x as long). I was completely stable for one year, then, quite suddenly, was low. To compensate, I had to increase my dose by 2 mg daily, and I've been stable at that dose for 1.5 years. If I were on their plan, I'd have been essentially un-anticoagulated for at least 2 months (more like three, since I test weekly and caught it after one week). It's a solution to a non-existent problem.

Thank you for posting it though. It's interesting to see what sort of things people get up to, and to know what the bad ideas are, along with the good.
 
I have been home testing for just 4 weeks(love it) and would never let that happen. I have moved from 1.9 to 3.9 in 10 days before. This once a week testing gives me a very comforting feeling. Looking back I am not likeing that I was at 4 week testing for awhile.
 
I would love to be in a super stable INR category, but after only a little over 2 weeks n Warfarin, I don't know where I'll end up. My father-in-law is a surgeon, and he recently told me of a friend on Warfarin who's was so stable, that his dose and INR stayed the same for many years. This man would be a candidate for less frequent testing but I don't know how many others are this stable.
 
The 'fact' that this man was 'so stable' that his INR and dose stayed the same 'for years' only tells us that on the days his INR was tested, it didn't fluctuate from that of the previous tests. It doesn't say anything about what may have happened to his INR BETWEEN tests. Infrequent snapshots that give the same picture each time don't tell what's happening between photos.

I used to think that, because my INR and dose were relatively stable, that it was alright to go for weeks between tests. I thought I could 'feel' when my INR wasn't right. My testing over the past 2 1/2 years showed that this assumption was wrong. Sure, I could go through my INR spreadsheet and find times when my INR was 'stable', and reasonably conclude that I could go for long periods between tests - but I could look at other times, between tests, when my INR WAS different from those 'stable' tests.

With the availability of meters for home testing - and the opening of anticoagulation clinics - there's little reason NOT to test weekly. (The strips should not cost more than $10 or so per test, and insurance usually covers the tests). It's not like the 'old' days when you had to go to a lab for a blood draw - a simple finger stick is all that's needed, and the costs are lower.

If you're only a few weeks post-op, it'll take a while until your INR is relatively 'stable.' If you can, get yourself a meter. This will make it less of a hassle finding your appropriate dosage. Every time I test, I'm grateful for having a meter and for being able to get my strips. Being able to KNOW what my INR actually is, rather than relying on infrequent testing or 'feeling' changes in my INR is empowering and reduces risks of being overanticoagulated.
 
Interesting study, but I'll stick to more frequent testing, since I have my own monitor.
I saw my family doctor 2 weeks ago and told him my INR had yo-yoed a little over the last 5 months, but I had been able to bring it in line each time. I have been extremely fatigued, thus the office visit, and blood tests determined that once again, I have extreme vitamin D3 deficiency (2nd time since March!). I think not feeling well was leading me to alter my normal routine, not eating normally, not exercising, causing the INRs to dip or go a little too high.
Dr. Murphy said that some patients tell him they can "tell" when their INR is too high or too low, and that he doesn't believe you can feel a high or low INR. I agreed with him. You may be ill and that may cause an out-of-range INR, but you won't "feel" an abnormal INR.
Hope the weekly 50,000IU of D3 does the trick this time.
Now, to run my INR before going to my parents' house for Thanksgiving!
 
Protimenow said:
The 'fact' that this man was 'so stable' that his INR and dose stayed the same 'for years' only tells us that on the days his INR was tested, it didn't fluctuate from that of the previous tests. It doesn't say anything about what may have happened to his INR BETWEEN tests. Infrequent snapshots that give the same picture each time don't tell what's happening between photos.

Yeah, I haven't verified this story personally so there certainly could be details that haven't been revealed. If however, this man really did have the same dose and INR every time he tested, which was monthly I believe, It would at least demonstrate that his INR seemed to be "locked" to 1 value and dose. That doesn't mean it wouldn't move away if he took a bunch of vitamin K, but that it tends toward one value like a feedback control system.

That said, I do think you are justified in being skeptical. There tend to be a lot of urban legends out there and this may be one of them. You have had a lot of experience self-testing and self-dosing and I respect that experience.
 
Protimenow said:
If you're only a few weeks post-op, it'll take a while until your INR is relatively 'stable.' If you can, get yourself a meter. This will make it less of a hassle finding your appropriate dosage. Every time I test, I'm grateful for having a meter and for being able to get my strips. Being able to KNOW what my INR actually is, rather than relying on infrequent testing or 'feeling' changes in my INR is empowering and reduces risks of being overanticoagulated.

I most certainly will be getting a meter. Self-testing and self-dosing will be my ultimate goal. We'll see how the Kaiser clinic is willing to work with that. It turns out that they will be able to give me a loaner meter as long as I'm a member. Even so I may end up purchasing my own. I look forward to being in control myself. As all you home testers have stressed, being able to test anytime, anyplace, seems very empowering.
 
I most certainly will be getting a meter. Self-testing and self-dosing will be my ultimate goal. We'll see how the Kaiser clinic is willing to work with that. It turns out that they will be able to give me a loaner meter as long as I'm a member. Even so I may end up purchasing my own. I look forward to being in control myself. As all you home testers have stressed, being able to test anytime, anyplace, seems very empowering.

I'll be looking into a home meter by end of this year. My INR has been pretty stable and I'm now at 3 week testing intervals. I personally would like to test once a week or bi weekly depending on situations, changes in diet. Ultimately I would like to test where I want and when I want. Not have to worry for a week if I'm in range or not.
 
I've been advocating for weekly - or more frequent - testing. I believe that it could be important to detect, fairly early, if any fluctuations occur in your INR. I mentioned in other postings that the one time I went 10 days, my INR had dropped down to 1.2. If I had tested weekly, I may have found it earlier (if, indeed, this didn't happen on day 9).

Although I advocate for weekly testing, my supply of InRatio strips is declining and I don't know when (or if), I'll be able to buy more. My computer - on which I record my INR values - is down, so I can't keep a record of changes.

My last test was taken after 8 days. Today is day 9 for my next test, and I'll probably test today. I'm not expecting any major changes that could bring me out of range -- but I'll know once I test.

If my values ARE out of range, I'll post again and report the value. If not, my 9 day lapse shouldn't be TOO big a deal. (Again - I still push for weekly testing, but realize that in most cases, just staying IN range between tests is safe enough -- it's just not possible to know that you are IN range between tests if you don't test often enough. Also - if your tests put you near the top or bottom of your range, it's probably more important to test more frequently, just to be sure that you haven't gone out of range).

(Also -- if any of the members of the forum have InRatio strips that have expired, and you don't want to use them, send me a private message -- I'd be happy to take them off your hands)
 
This study was proposed and carried out in response to the concern that an testing monthly was expensive and inconvenient. Other research had previously shown either that there wasn't a 'statistically significant' difference between shorter and longer intervals, at least in terms of outcomes, or that it was difficult to detect the difference. Where it is flawed is that it demonstrates an unfamiliarity with anti-coagulation, and a misapprehension, one that is common to doctor's who are commonly charged with managing ACT. Even the clinics are set up to operate under the same misapprehension. What is not understood is that INR (more precisely, the time to form thrombin, expressed as INR for the sake of easy universal comparison) is highly variable over the course of days and weeks. Worse, they don't seem to understand that it can and will change dramatically, and for the long term, in the space of days, if not hours, and without warning.
When the researchers in Hamilton did the study, they actually DID monitor all of the patients on the regular four week schedule, as normal. There were extreme results in the group who were suppose to represent the 12 week interval (and for whom 'sham' results were being reported).

"A physician at the CMC reviewed all true INR results
in the 12-week group for extreme values, defined as less
than 1.5 or 4.5 or greater. When INR results that were to
have been reported as sham values were extreme, the true
result was forwarded to the treating physician, as were any
follow-up measures (usually 1 week after an extreme INR
was found). True INR results were also always reported for
measures in association with a clinical event or perioperative management. A manual record of true INRs in both
groups was kept at the CMC."


This short paragraph tells you everything you need to know about the value of the study. There were patients who were deemed to have dangerous results in the interim tests, which they would not have been having if they we part of a 12 week regime. Those results were reported to the managers who could then act appropriately to prevent harm.

How many patients would it be ok to harm or lose in order to save a few dollars on test strips?

One other statistic worth looking at is that there were both fewer extreme INRs reported and fewer dose changes for the longer interval group. The study doesn't adress whether that is random, in spite of the interval differences, or because of the interval difference. In other words, were there fewer dose changes because of the longer interval, and was that beneficial, harmful or inconsequential to the patients.

I'm comfortable with my 1-2 week intervals right now, and won't be changing them any time soon. For fewer than 20 dollars per month (about what I spend in Starbucks each month). I can buy piece of mind, and possibly prevent a stroke or bleed.
 
Excellent information, Yotphix.

I think that some of the early testing for 'appropriate' intervals for testing were also made based on the cost and inconvenience to the patient of having lab blood draws. If I had to drive to a lab, find a parking spot, then have some clumsy technician try to find a vein (and I have good veins, usually), I may prefer testing every month or so.

The situation has been much different since relatively affordable meters that require only a finger stick for blood collection have come out. Although many of us still have to go through the hassle of driving to the anticoagulation clinic, parking, etc., the tests are fast, easy, and relatively inexpensive.

Scheduling infrequent testing in order to avoid the hassle of a blood draw should no longer be an issue.

Because INRs can - and sometimes do - drop or fall quite rapidly, I believe that it's good practice to test weekly even if your INR appears to be stable from week (or weeks) to week (or weeks). Personally, I've detected unexpected moves out of range, and have been able to take more immediate action than if I had been testing monthly and not even known that my INR was out of range.
 
Just curious? Is the definition of "stable inr"--within range at the same dosage for at least 6 months?

For the purpose of this study, that was the definition. Your point regarding insurance is interesting. I don't suppose the researchers in Hamilton (where home testing isn't covered by the provincial single payer system anyway, though may be by private supplementary insurance) considered that they might be opening that can of worms. They were actually attempting to determine whether the ACT clinic could serve more patients by seeing them less frequently.
 
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